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Hey internet land I'm adriel the creator of the herpes opportunity and I am talking with ella dawson and what. Was it about a year ago when we met at a conference. And what I remember really clearly asides from the words that we exchanged. Was your passion and your drive and what's the word conviction right you just came up to me. And we're like this is what I want to do right I'm. Like wow well that's freaking inspiring and then here it is a year later. And a few days ago I get a few emails and then a few facebook messages. And they're like you should really read this article since you do all this herpes work there's this woman. Who wrote this article on herpes so I opened up the article. And I'm like I know ella what it was and in that moment. I was just like so freaking proud of you for following through. And thank you and and doing it so I'm excited to talk. And kind of get into the nitty-gritty of it and hear your story behind it. So yeah sure I can start there actually I was diagnosed with herpes at the end of my junior year of college. Which was may 2013 and then last year last march. I went to catalyst con which was this big like sex educator sex positive conference in dc. And that was my first opportunity meeting anyone else who publicly identified as having herpes. And at that point I had started to talk about it at my school. I had started to disclose in person to classmates and to friends. But I hadn't yet written anything publicly about it and meeting other people. Like you and people like ashley monta who is such who's such an icon for me. Was so inspiring and so exciting and I left that conference really terrified. Because I realized no this is it this is what. I want to do and very unsure of what my next step. Should be but that was that was like a deal breaker for me that was.
... When I realized there are people who do this and they're really awesome. And successful and it was really eye-opening for me so it's really it's really fun to be talking to you. Now because I remember you were the first person I'd ever met in person. And my only memory of that was being very flustered and like on the verge of tears. And I have no idea what I said in that moment so. Yeah it's interesting I don't really remember either but it was. I don't remember the words like I said but I. I just remember the the energy behind it and the clarity so what. Actually like like leading up to writing this article which is why. You know you're all over the world I think with with writing this freaking article. I think I saw australia picked you up and all these major news organizations I'm getting a lot of love in australia new zealand heard from a lot of people in denmark. And belgium canada yeah it went global pretty much overnight which was shocking to me. I very weird feeling very amazing weird yeah so so kind of walk me through leading up to even just writing the article. Like what had you write the article in the first place sure. I well I wrote my first like blog post saying to the world. I have herpes in writing with my name in january this past january. I wrote it in the context of an essay for my blog about. Why as somebody who writes erotica I pay a lot of attention to whether or not my characters use condoms that's. Like a big that's a big debate in the erotica world because some publishers require you to show safe sex in your stories. And authors find that very limiting and frustrating and I wrote an essay saying. Actually I care a lot about this but I have to explain. Why it's because I have genital herpes it's because I cannot write a sex scene without thinking about it. Because I myself cannot have sex without thinking about it and I don't think that all authors.
... Should have to write any sort of propaganda I'm not saying that. But in my erotica it's something I care a lot about and that was my first coming out public disclosure moment in writing. And it was it became a very popular post within the erotica community. And also just in my own social networks and in. I put it on my facebook as like a big reveal sort of moment. And most people who knew me already know because as. I wrote for women's health I talk a lot about herpes it that was that was the moment for me. Where there was no turning back and immediately I felt this weight off my shoulders. And I also that was my most popular post of all time in in terms of traffic too. So I realized this is clearly hitting a nerve and this is something people really want to read about. And I also immediately started to hear from other people at my university wesleyan. Who had herpes and were so moved that somebody was speaking about this. I every time I write something new I get a new wave of messages from people thanking me for it. And sharing their stories and I got hooked so I wrote a follow-up piece in my blog of. Like this is what happens after you tell the internet you have herpes. Like the cute guy you were texting kind of ghosts on you. But that's fine like who needs him that's okay all of my ex-boyfriends checked in to be. Like I'm so proud of you this is awesome I'm totally supportive. And some interesting conversations I had with my parents and the response that I got. And at that point I started to be interested in writing for places other than my blog. Because obviously I have a very limited audience and people who have found their way to my blog usually. Are very open to the idea that herpes is unfairly stigmatized so. I just let it be known to my friends that I was interested in broadening my audience.
... And it just so happened that a friend of a friend worked at women's health. And one of her editors mentioned that they were hoping to find somebody to write about dating with herpes for std awareness month. And my friend was like oh I I know somebody who does that. And I don't think they had any idea what they were in for. When I think they probably expected something along the herpes journalism the lines of herpes journalism that we see. So often which is this is my story it was really hard. I learned to live love again and I'm okay and most people also write anonymously. And I get so sick of those stories because they're it's just one story being told over. And over again and it has that really beautiful sappy music in the background. Like oh I found love and someone accepted me finally exactly yeah. I know and it's a relationship and usually you also get a lot of justification of oh. I was cheated on by someone or oh I don't know how this happened I've always been. So responsible and I wanted to write something different I wanted to write something unapologetic. And I wanted to write something informed by the rest of my life I'm a feminist. I write about sex anyway and this is something I thought a lot about. So they asked me and I accepted and then the internet lost its mind. And and the the title is pretty kick-ass too why. I love telling people I have herpes that definitely tilts some heads I'm. Sure but before we get into that rolling back to the very first very first article that you put up on your blog you're coming out. Right you said it was a tremendous weight off your shoulders now I'm getting into the mind of someone. Who is watching this who might be deep deep deep in shame. And the stigma is just weighing down on them and they're probably saying. What the [ __ ] that seems backwards like how can telling the world you.
... Have herpes actually lift the weight off sure I my experience with herpes. And also just other life experiences I've had is that as soon as. I take possession of something that I'm ashamed of or afraid of something that somebody. Could use against me as soon as I own that and put it into my own words a lot of that fear goes away. Because I have now told the world this is my story this. Is who I am and you can judge me for it but you can't use it against me. Because I'm making it very clear it's not a weakness and the relief that I felt it. Was sort of like I'd finally been honest about who. I was and been honest with myself with the fact that I had been afraid of doing this and that I. Was worried that people might judge me but it was a huge relief. And I didn't realize I still had that left either I have been. So open about having herpes at least in terms of the people that I know my co-workers. Have known practically since I started at this job because I have. Like a little herpes keychain and obviously all friends know oh it's my favorite. I love it but I've always been extremely open about it but the moment that I put it in writing. And it was just out of my hands it was like that last wall came down. And owning my story and owning that experience makes it so much harder for anybody to turn it into something against me. Because it's not it's just a fact yeah yeah story and and. Yeah just to just to underline that too because a lot of people. Could okay there are a few different things I want to touch on here one. Where someone might hear that and be like oh well in order to get the weight off my shoulders. Do I have to be all over all these news organizations and get it all out there in the world right that's the first one.
... And then the second one is well I guess go ahead and fully explain that one. Yeah what sure what what has what has you be the kind of person. Who that would like who you need to come out in this big way in order to to feel that way versus maybe someone who's not really willing to be. So public about it and what that difference is yeah yeah for me being. So open and having it be well first of all. I did not expect to become the face of herpes overnight so. I kind of thought this would be like one in many steps it happened all at once. But for me because my writing and my sex writing specifically is. So important to who I am I'd felt for so long this disconnect of I'm a sex writer. And I have these values and I've lived an empowered sexual lifestyle. But I have this std and for me that conflicts drove me crazy. And was a real source of stress and shame and so for me to own it in writing. Was very central to who I am as a person and to the career that I want to. Have so it was definitely the right choice for me and for. What I want and for what I needed to heal that being said definitely not the. Right choice for everyone I'm also very lucky to work a job. Where people are very open-minded and where people care about education and I don't. Have to worry about losing my job or losing opportunities down the line. I have a really supportive family so I made the choice that made sense for me for other people. Who want to find ways to open up and who are struggling with that stigma. And with that shame you have to figure out what makes sense to you whether it's sharing that with your family members. Who you love and trust and who can support you whether it's just being very open with your partners. Which I would recommend doing anyway but finding those key people who it.
... Would be helpful for you to share that part of yourself with the people. Who are really core to who you are and some people that might be very few people some people might want to be very open about it my generation. And especially like my like crazy liberal friends we're all very open. And we love talking about sex so it was very natural for me to come home from the clinic. And be like god damn it and tell my roommate immediately and already that felt. So much better so you really have to figure out what makes the most sense for you. And what is safest for you as well yeah yeah and I. I love brene brown's work around this I'm saying that. You know shame really is that that fear that if this thing gets out then my own self-judgment will be reflected in the judgment of everyone else in the world. But what you touched on which is so beautiful is that if if me as a person with herpes. Can find within myself that acceptance first and own that then what. Does anyone else have to hurt me with that it's no longer a weapon. Because I'm no longer hurting myself with it so it can't be thrown back at me it's. So beautiful and and the other piece around how how you actually relate to yourself in that healing process. Like what you're speaking to of of sharing it with those people that you. Can trust that are going to love you anyway and that it's it seems. Like there's a there's a process of unfolding that happens there yeah. How have you seen that healing process unfolding for you through this whole through the whole this whole process. Well the first phone call that I made was to my mom and some people. Have a lot of anxiety about telling their parents I'm just very fortunate that the thought didn't even cross my mind that my parents might judge me I. Was a little more nervous to tell my dad just because we don't talk about sex in that way.
... Like we don't have that sort of relationship but first person. I called was my mom and her immediate response was just caring about. How I was doing how I felt was I getting the right treatment so. I went to my parents first and they were amazing. I went to my roommate next she was also amazing and I just gradually reached out to the friends. Who were closest to me I had to call some ex-boyfriends which sucked at the time. But actually tightened that support net that I had because I was able to. Have them support me as well because they still knew me as a person. And cared about me deeply and I wound up becoming very very very close friends with one of my exes. Who I thought I had lost as a result which was one of the blessings of me getting sick at all. So I just I gradually reached out to more and more people. And shared with them what I was going through and every time. I did it made me a little stronger and I heard the same thing over. And over again which was that I love you you're so strong this doesn't change anything you're a badass. Like you can handle this and it it was it was reassuring every step of the way. And I faced very little negativity and that speaks a lot to the character of my friends. But also the fact that people are a lot kinder and more accepting than you. Would expect especially if they already love you and they're on your side. Right yeah absolutely and and that each disclosure that happens especially with those people. Who unconditionally love you it's like every dose of that love that can fill up my own self-love tank. Is that that kind of invincibility that can happen once you're like oh wait a minute. I I do accept myself it's almost like disclosures that happen in that unfolding feels. Like almost showing myself that I'm lovable so that by the time I'm filled up it's.
... Like oh okay now what right like moving on to the next problem in my life so. So so now fast forwarding to to the article in women's health. Was it women's health magazine online at least yeah yeah so so that that opportunity came up. And and then you started writing that article how was that process for you it. Was really terrifying in that I had to neatly summarize two years of my life. And I thought a lot about what message I wanted to send. What type of article I wanted to write and it made me think a lot about the relationship that I. Have to herpes now how am I doing now what are my relationships. Like now what have I learned so I did a lot of soul searching. And they gave me five or six days to work on the article. And I wrote four or five drafts just starting over because nothing really felt. Right and I also reached out to my exes to say what stories. Are you comfortable with me sharing this is not only my story this. Is the story of a lot of people of my family of my friends of past lovers. And I wanted to make sure that I wasn't dragging in anybody else. Who didn't want to be part of this story when it was shared with. What turned out to be the world and once I realized. I wanted to start from an unapologetic position everything else kind of wrote itself. I knew that I didn't want to write it I didn't want to start by writing about getting diagnosed. I didn't want to start the article in a doctor's office that's very predictable. But it also positions the reader to it's it's alienating to the reader. Because if they haven't had that experience it's not it's not going to pull them in in the same way. And it sets it sets you up as a victim and as a patient as opposed to an as a person. So I started I decided to start on that softball field about to.
... Have casual sex with a really great person because that's more reflective of. Where I am and the way that I live my life but it's also funnier it's a great hook it's very hard to not read that article. And it's not what people expect it's a completely different take on living with herpes that we've seen in the media. So that was once I had that moment and I started it at. Like 7am because I had had to scrap a draft and I had two days left. I got up early I started writing and then it just wrote itself at that point. Yeah yeah it's it seemed that it was just that it was just straight from your core. Right it wasn't like it was it had so much personality to it it's. Like you shone right through and was like here I am here's. What happened and just a side note I love the fact that you use the word boned all the time it's my personal personal favorite word it. Is yeah and I'm a really frank person I have. I have a weird sense of humor but I have a sense of humor. I have my own slang and I wanted my voice to come through. And my personality to come through because as we mentioned like a lot of the pieces we already see. Are so very vanilla and safe and it doesn't feel like there's another human there. So I wanted to write as myself and bone is just a great word. And I also I also swear a lot and I've become more aware of that. Now that I'm presenting myself to the world but I wanted to be deliberate in my language choice. And show that I'm young but I do take myself and my work seriously. Yeah absolutely it was bone is a good middle ground yeah it. Was it was really well done piece like feeling like it was just really really real. And frank and honest and and and authentic but and also educational for for people.
... Who can relate to having sex in general which is most people so awesome awesome it. Was beautiful to read it so then you write it and then it blows up all over the interwebs. I can only imagine in a few days time what was that. Like so funny story it kind of rolled out in stages because tuesday the article itself went up around 4 p.m. And immediately I started to get facebook messages from readers saying thank you. So much like this makes so much sense to me. I have herpes this is my story I got I got quite a few of those. And I saw it rise to the top of women's health's like trending articles. And I could see that it was getting a lot of attention. And then the next day I woke up to an email from the washington post asking if they. Could speak to me and they were super wonderful to work with. And very kind and again it was just somebody who related to the piece. And wanted to get it some love and once the wasp once the washington post article went up that was. When all hell broke loose because every other media site read that. And either aggregated the article directly which meant just like reposting it to their site or writing their own piece so that that was huge then jezebel found the piece from washington post. And also went to my blog and found the piece that I'd written about having written the piece. Where I explained the meta piece yeah the meta piece exactly where. I explained my motivations going into the piece and they they wrote up a really wonderful article about me so that was another wave that went off. And then all like the crazy republicans found that jezebel piece and it. Was just like it kept snowballing and snowballing and snowballing and then the uk found it. And I spoke to somebody at the independent who wrote about it and then. I started getting messages from denmark from australia from new zealand from belgium from canada from places.
... Where I don't even speak the language but translated and all these people. Who are like using google translate to send me messages of thank you. So much like this is my story and it was the most overwhelming. And terrifying thing that has ever happened yeah yeah so on both sides of it. I imagine of getting all of the love and all of the. Like the people relieved to read an article that was real and authentic. But then also the other side of things of the judgment and all that explain both of those sides to me of. How it was to receive all that yeah I didn't actually there wasn't much negative press. Like there were there were a couple right-wing fringe news sites that were never going to. Like me in the first place and called me a liberal whack job. And and said things that reinforced the stigma but it was so clear that I. Was never going to win those people over and that they were very full of [ __ ]. Anyway that it was actually very easy to brush those off and I didn't receive any direct negative attention. Which shocked me I didn't get any negative twitter messages. I didn't get any negative headlines other than people like poking fun. What was really scary for me was that news organizations went to my facebook page. And took photos that were public thankfully there weren't many because I work in social media. And I kind of saw that coming but it was very strange to see a photo of me on the daily mail that had cropped out my dad of a photo we took at his birthday. And like that was when I got quite scared because I realized this. Is no longer under my control like I've said my piece and. Now it's out of my hands and people are going to say. And do what they want with my story so that was when I began to get very overwhelmed had a lovely full tilt panic attack and it had nothing to.
... Do with the negative reaction or with stigma it had nothing to. Do with being afraid of telling my story it was just overwhelm. I was just overwhelmed by the attention and how immediate it was. And it was also this is something I decided in within the last year that I want to spend my life doing. I wanted to humanize herpes and I figured this moment might happen. Like way down the line like when I'm like 30 and I give. Like a little tedx talk that goes viral like this was the long-term goal it. Was not a 48-hour goal so yeah you're speeding that along aren't you. Yeah and I'm also 22 years old so I have a lot of development left in general. I can only imagine what 30 holds for you now that this. Is already where you're at at 22.
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... I know so it was I received very little negative feedback. But it was just so much to process at once and any sort of emotional. And activist labor already comes with an emotional toll it's very draining it. Is very scary and it's been so powerful to receive hundreds and hundreds of messages from people with their stories. But it's also very scary and draining and it it's a complicated sort of responsibility. Because I want to be there for them I want them to know that they're heard. I want to validate them sharing their story with me I'm so grateful. But people endure a lot of pain and trauma and the stigma. Is powerful and dangerous and it's really horrifying to hear some of the things that I've heard. Because I want to help and the most I can do is say I'm listening. And I care but it's it's been very intense it's been an emotional week. Yeah yeah I can imagine yeah I mean I see all the time on the herpes opportunity forums too that kind of just overwhelming. Like I need help and I'm all alone and this is the only space that I've found it's a safe space. So it's like the herpes opportunity forums is this bubble of safe space the ella dawson. Is this safe space now you know it's like it and it's. So rare to have these safe spaces for us to share what we might be ashamed of. And wow for for that kind of a a deluge of relief to come your way of. Like oh finally a safe space wow I can see how that's simultaneously fulfilling. And and quite overwhelming so yeah I imagine all the people like. Actually watching this now will will get that that you're a human being. And you care and you have like limited time and resources to be able to answer every every person. And I am I am so grateful because those messages are what. I do this for and I have read every single message and I try to respond to all of them.
... But I definitely want people to find other resources too and to know that I exist. And I'm a person and that's really cool and I. I wish that there had been an article like mine when I got diagnosed a lot of. What I was writing was just what I wish I could have told myself two years ago. But there are so many other places to turn as well where you. Can have a conversation and you can find that community like the herpes opportunity website tumblr. Has this really great herpes community within it where people especially younger people my age. And the newly diagnosed that's that's a really wonderful place to find the support that you're looking for. And to deal with those issues and get your questions answered because I am. I I don't know everything and I I'm also not a doctor. And I'm not a psychologist and I'm not a wise oracle who. Can answer all of your moral dilemmas what so come on get get with the program woman. You know I really need to get on I need to get on my [ __ ]. And be all knowing but but there are definitely a lot of resources. And I never found the herpes opportunity site because I never looked for it. Because I was so freaked out it scared me to google herpes for months. And there are places you can go and they're actually quite accessible. Yeah yeah awesome and so the the vulnerability hangover that naturally comes from something. I mean any any time that you share any sort of vulnerability even with one person you might. Have a vulnerability hangover first of all explain what a vulnerability hangover. Is to you and what kind of a vulnerability hangover you had at this point. Yeah so I oh man vulnerable hang vulnerability hangovers are so real often. When you do something bold or you disclose or you write something really intense or you. Have a really emotionally invested conversation you can get this exhaustion and inexplicable depression as.
... Well where you just feel like crap and it can have very real physical physical expressions in that exhaustion. And a lot of people get headaches and my friends get migraines. I just I just wanted to cry and I had no appetite. And I didn't it was very hard for me to talk to anyone for those first two or three days. I couldn't be around other people I cancelled the date. I like texted my parents like just leave me alone like. I can't I was really exhausted and I'm really lucky to work somewhere too. Where my co-workers who were all online all the time saw what. Was happening and gave me that space I needed and let me work from home the days that I. Was feeling really overwhelmed but it's very real and it's also very normal to. Have a reaction of holy [ __ ] what have. I done like that I definitely that first day was like. I have made a terrible mistake like this is totally out of my hands this. Is going to be my google yeah this is going to be my google history forever. And I like I can never run for political office oh no not that I ever. Was going to but like you had these like panic thoughts and for me. I wound up having an actual panic attack because it was very overwhelming. But it's very real and for me I was exhausted. I was scared I hated being around people and I was put on xanax. Which was great and eventually just kind of lifted I started really paying attention the messages. I was getting I started to see how positive the media coverage. Was all of the offers I was getting to collaborate and it took three or four days before. I realized wait I did something I've always wanted to do and it worked. And it went well and I want to keep doing that and the cloud sort of lifted. And it's important to give yourself that time to be really freaked out.
... And kind of a mess because it's just how people work it's. How our brain chemistry works and you have to be prepared to work on self-care. And to know what you might need and anticipate those needs and respect the fact that you're allowed to be a mess. Yeah and so so to translate this to you know the people. Who are considering disclosing to a partner or disclosing to family members. And stuff it's like the vulnerability is actually opening ourselves up it's literally it's making ourselves vulnerable to whatever the other person. Has to say or if they have a reaction or god forbid a judgment or whatever that is we're opening ourselves up to an infinite number of possibilities so it's. Yeah it is that that that energy drain of like gosh anything. Could happen I could die right our our reptilian brain is like what. Are you doing our whole ego structure can crumble and we could. Actually be rejected by all of the world and society so it doesn't only take someone. Like ella dawson to to you know put put yourself into the whole world to. Have that kind of a a reaction like vulnerability is kind of the next wave that I feel in our culture of. What does it mean to really open up and really just show. Who we are and and what we got and behind what we. Have is who we are and it shows our character and it shows our courage. And it shows that vulnerability so it to me this is like it it feels. Like herpes is is is kind of the representative of just like shame. And what we're afraid to share with the world and I love that the world. Has responded in this way to you that 99 of the world. Is like oh thank you ella thank you for sharing that because it's. Like you are the spokesperson for what I've been so ashamed of. And so afraid of yeah that's that's been my experience of it it's just this overwhelming relief.
... And like deep sigh from the world of like yes like thank you for having said this. And I part of what I work on my blog is I'm starting to interview exes about. What it was like to date me somebody with herpes but also just friends. And family members who know me and other people who are herpes positive it's a very young project. I just started but from those conversations I'm seeing that everybody does. Have those sources of shame whether it's they have ringworm because they. Did high school wrestling and like they're afraid of giving that to a partner. Which is just the funniest parallel to me but or some people struggle a lot with their sexuality some people struggle a lot with a bad breakup that they had that really warped their ability to be honest. Like everybody has something and it doesn't it doesn't have to be sexual either it doesn't. Have to have anything to do with relationships everybody has something that they hide from the world. And everybody can relate to that and it is I. I agree with you I think that we're going to see more. And more people hopefully owning those parts themselves and for me the best lesson. I learned from this experience getting diagnosed and from this experience writing. Is the more you own those weaknesses and forgiving yourself you and forgive yourself for having them that can be a source of huge strength and I hear that a lot from my friends. Like you're such a badass because you're you're a very weird person with your flaws. But you own them and that's what makes you strong and people feel very comfortable being honest with me about their own problems. And their own concerns because I've started a conversation and I've I've set the bar. Like this is how vulnerable I'm willing to be you can come join me it's safe here. Yeah you stand up above the crowd and it's like wait why. Are we all ducking can we all just stand up like yeah people start standing up oh this.
... Is okay so if let's let's say you know at some point in the future maybe 20 years in the future. Like this this stand that you're taking in the world produces all the change that you hope that it will produce. What kind of a world does that look like to you oh I'm very bad at future thinking in general. Well sprung that one on you whenever somebody's like where do you see yourself in five years I'm. Like I see myself on twitter with a diet coke like. I don't I don't know but no I think ideally we should live in a world. Where people understand and own their sexual health and do not feel that deep fear that we. Have I would love if in the next year or two or three as a result of the work I'm doing that we're all doing we saw some people disclosing publicly some important people my mom. I think it was my mom was like what if some celebrities started disclosing that they had herpes. Because they read your article I was like that'd be great but I think just having more faces. And having more stories be told it can lead to a huge ripple effect of more people coming forward. And more people normalizing this thing that so many so many of us live with. And experience but 10 20 years from now I just hope we live somewhere. Where people realize that this is not a big deal it's just really nice it's. Actually not yeah it's really not a big deal yeah right and this. Is this is going right in line with I know you mentioned in in your article around someone making a herpes joke. And it being this almost this unconscious thing that whenever we're talking about sex. And the risks of sex that there's always this herpes joke that gets thrown in that it's just supposed to be funny. And nobody actually puts a face to the name I had a similar experience with a with a friend during dinner.
... Who he was a really good friend and all of a sudden he makes a herpes joke. And I just stopped right over the dinner table and was like wait. Do you realize that I have herpes same exact response that you're talking about just stunned. Like yeah wait no trying to piece it together like no that was that's just some joke that's not that. Actually doesn't impact human beings so that it it's reminding me that that the more of us. Who are willing to come out to whatever degree even if it's to close friends to people. Who you know will love and accept you or to the whole world or anything in between that it's making the unconscious more conscious. Like the unconscious thing of like yeah of course it's okay to make fun of people with herpes they're dirty or blah blah whatever. Yeah we don't realize that that it's having an impact so that they're we're going to. Have more consciousness and more awareness around what we say and and in our relationships just across the board. Yeah and I I can't say this with certainty because I have nothing to back this up. But I definitely saw in my last year of college like the ripple effect of me talking about having herpes. I I could see in every class that I mentioned it in. And every conversation with my friends every conversation that my ex-boyfriend who. I was seeing at the time had with his friends like you. Can see people like the light bulb go on and I I've become. Like I've heard from friends who are still at school like everybody's talking about your article on campus. Like this is such a this is so crazy and I'm pretty. Sure everybody at wesleyan university now knows that herpes is not a joke. Yeah yeah that's 2 000 people who will now go out in the world knowing somebody or having heard that story. And if we can have more of those moments even if they. Are small between friends it does have a huge impact and I.
... I draw a really hard line with my partners of like you cannot make herpes jokes unless they're brilliant. And not at the expense of anyone who has herpes in which case go to town. I would love to hear what you have but do not make herpes jokes it's a huge deal to me. And call people out when they do in front of you it doesn't matter if you don't. Have herpes if somebody you know makes a herpes joke you're allowed to say. Like do you realize that's like one in six people who have genital herpes. And like most of us probably have it in our bodies it's something that everyone. Can make a difference on by just being like shut up so. Yeah yeah beautiful beautiful and you so you had mentioned your university which reminds me of just the whole culture that that especially the younger generation lives in these days of this hookup culture. And casual sex and and yeah I hear a lot on the herpes opportunity. And when I'm coaching people there's like this definitive belief of well once. I get herpes now I first of all I have to find someone who's going to accept me. And then once I do I have to stay with them for life. Because it's so rare so so this belief inherent in this belief. Is like well there's no way that hooking up is gonna be. Okay yeah so what do you have to say about that I. I definitely was one of those people when I first got diagnosed. I was like well [ __ ] this really messes up I'm gonna. Have to settle down exactly I'm gonna have to find a boyfriend. Like this is so boring I ran my campuses art and sexuality magazine. So I had like I was kind of a campus celebrity. I was a west celeb in this school paper and I had this identity kind of hilariously of being. Like this this hookup person even though honestly like I wasn't really doing much hooking up.
... I like it's not in my experience drunk casual sex was never very fun so by the time. I got diagnosed I had already started to change the the sex that I. Was interested in having but I immediately thought okay well this is. No longer going to be a part of my life and I joined okcupid over the summer. And started dating and had a rejection and went through that whole process. And when I got back to campus I realized I had a choice to make of. Do I want to see how the hookup culture thing works or do. I just want to wall myself off from the world and I started going to parties. And my one really funny hookup experience was just that I had been flirting really heavily with a male friend and I mentioned when we started flirting at a party. And it was clear that there was an interest there we left the party together. And we started kissing and I was like I just have to tell you something really quickly. Like I have genital herpes we don't have to have sex if you don't want to we. Would have to use a condom and if you want more time to. Do your research we can hang out tomorrow night instead like. I just like very quickly was like these are the things you. Should know and I also made an effort to see that neither of us had been drinking to the point. Where we couldn't actually make the decision with intention that was really important to me as. Well and he was basically yeah that's huge for me and and it. Should be for everyone but but in that moment I really wanted to make. Sure he understood what I was saying and he did and and we wound up not having sex. I think because I I just wasn't in the mood but he. Was like that's that's fine I don't care that's totally fine and it made me realize this. Is totally like it's not going to work with every person and it depends a lot on.
... How well you've already known that person I've never had sex with a stranger since getting diagnosed. But it's not something I want to do in general but you. Can meet somebody and then have that conversation and have it be quick. But informative and deliberate and then do whatever you want. I hear amazing stories on tumblr of people who were like. I went to the bar and the bartender was really cute so. I waited any close until he closed up and then. I mentioned that I had herpes and he's like I don't care let's get a drink. I hear about it all the time and it's totally accessible it's just. How much your how much you have the guts to say it. And to talk about in a way that's honest but also not terrifying. Yeah yeah what I what I see a lot is that it's it's almost. Like the the inherent fear that comes along with just putting ourselves out there. And say hey do you like me you know in whatever way we. Do that you know do you want to have sex with me whether we. Have herpes or not it's a vulnerable thing of course sex is a vulnerable act. But just opening yourself up to the potential of do you like me that's memorable. And then when you add on something like herpes it it like turns up the heat on that of. Yeah oh [ __ ] there you know so so it's almost. Like when you're talking with someone and you're disclosing that I love. How you put that it's just so matter of fact it can the disclosure conversation. Can be so just like hey by the way here's the deal. What do you think do you want to still have sex and it's. So frank and so honest and that it blows my mind that we don't. Have those kinds of conversations anyway yeah and part of the thing that frustrates me. So much about college hookup culture in general is that there's so little communication happening.
... And a lot of the casual sex that happens on college campuses. Is objectively not good because you're not comfortable talking about what you want. And what you don't want and what feels good and what doesn't feel good. And there's a whole bunch of consent problems going on all across the country. Obviously we're seeing that a lot in the news anyway but people need to talk about sex more. And I have nothing against people hooking up I've I do it myself. I think it's great but have the sex you want to be having. And herpes has made me so much better at asking for what. I want and for also being very honest when I'm attracted to someone. I was having dinner with somebody and I said like I was on a second date. And on the first date I had mentioned having herpes and it. Was very clear like we were mainly just interested in each other to. Have like a casual relationship and to have sex with each other. And on the first date I had mentioned having herpes and he kind of ghosted on me. Like the date was very abruptly over and and I kind of understood. Like okay I startled him that's fine like that's not what he. Was expecting he did his research came back and we got dinner again. And over dinner it just so happened the kitchen at the bar. Was running really slow so we got a little hammered but I said. Like I used that liquid courage and I was like look I'm attracted to you. I don't really know where you're at I don't really know if me having herpes scared the crap out of you. But what's going on and you just kind of looked at me dumbfounded. And was like I am also interested in you I don't want to. Have sex yet but that's a thing that should happen and I guess I've just gotten ballsier in general coming on to people. And being very honest because I I've I've experienced that rejection and I've learned to articulate.
... What I want by virtue of having to disclose and have conversations. And bounce back when I get an answer that I don't like totally. And in in that in that scenario I can see so many people just assuming. Okay ghosting is because of herpes avoiding is because of herpes all of these things. Are because of herpes because in in someone's mind who is so self-critical around having herpes it's. So quickly blamed for for everything I'm I'm single because I have herpes. But I love how you're turning that on its head and saying all. Right well if I'm gonna be having this. You know hard talk anyway like I might as well go ahead. And speak to all of the things that are vulnerable so that I. Can get what I want it's like it's it's almost like going to training camp. Like emotional boot camp or something like what just putting it all in the line at once. Yeah and and here's another piece that I I come to time. And time again in in people who talk about casual sex in the way of of saying. Yeah I want to have sex but I don't want to have any sort of connection at all. And it's like well sex is so physically intimate but then there's this fascinating parallel that that doesn't match up to me. Where there's there's this avoidance of emotional connection and even in like the the casual hookup scene it's. Like wouldn't you want to at least care about this person as a human being. And get to know them and what they like and how can. I please you and I I really like you even if it's just for one night. Yeah totally but so many people don't see that connection and they're. Like yeah casual sex but I don't want that whole emotional bit. And so I see I see it time and time again and it's. And it's fascinating that that herpes can be that opportunity to to really match those things up if I'm going to open myself up in this sexual way then I'm going to open myself up in other ways regardless of whether that means an inherent commitment or I.
... Have to get married to this person for the next 20 years or whatever so that's that's awesome that's awesome what about the. I know I read in your article around the conversation around the the risk of partners getting herpes especially in. Like a casual sex kind of context and it being worth it all. Right look can you talk about that a little bit yeah that was something that I struggled with far longer than. I realized I entered a serious relationship about six months after. I got diagnosed with a wonderful person who was very accepting and for. So long in my own head I was framing I was framing the relationship. And and in other relationships that I'd had prior in this context of does this person find me worth it considering the risk that they're exposing themselves to or at least that they. Could theoretically I don't know asymptomatic viral shedding is weird but but I definitely put myself on this. Like weird scale of at what point am I worth more than this risk. And I joked about being a walking health risk in this like very gallows humor sort of way. And it took me a while to realize first of all you. Can be with people who not only accept the risk but don't really care there's a risk. Like I've been in relationship with people who have said like sure the the emotional stigma that herpes carries. Is very hard but health-wise I'm not afraid of getting it and while it. Would be great if I stayed herpes negative I'm okay if I get it in the context of this relationship. Because I love you I love spending time with you I love the sex that we're having. And I want to make decisions that honor our connection so there. Are definitely those people who are just very chill about that risk. And don't see it as a risk and I had an amazing conversation recently with an ex. Who I interviewed about the fact that all relationships have risks open yourself up.
... And you are vulnerable emotionally in any sort of way you're risking getting hurt you're risking getting rejected you're risking falling harder for that other person you're risking getting ghosted on. Like you can have physical risk but there's so much emotional risk. And I think that's the emotional risks have the potential to mess you up even more in the long run I've had relationships that have damaged me more than getting herpes ever. Did and that's just that's what you choose to open yourself up to any time you let somebody into your life. And I've I've been jokingly called a heartbreaker before and it's because there's a gamble in it starting any relationship nobody jokes about me being. Like oh you date ella you're risking getting herpes it's oh you risk her writing a blog post about you or her or. Like there's so many other types of risk so it was really empowering. When I realized like that it's this is not something to think of as a risk it's just a part of. Who you are and a part of what dating you means yeah. And and and for for all the people watching this who have herpes. And are scared of the herpes talk first of all that's very normal but second of all that there there. Is there is this this fascinating thing that happens that I call pre-rejection. Because a lot of times people will just automatically assume that no one. Is going to accept them yeah so they won't even open the door to to see if there's even a potential there. So the the feeling of like well I need to just stay in the herpes dating world. I can't put myself out there because it's automatic rejection and just. What you're speaking to of there's this broad spectrum spectrum of risk that we take on in relationship emotional risk physical risk all that kind of risk that the courage. And the character that it does take to have that kind of a conversation with someone that you're about to be intimate with or that you want to be intimate with.
... And you hope that they're wanting to be intimate with you too that kind of showing of character. And sharing of that vulnerability it's amazing what wonders that can do to just. Have a person be like wow of course you're worth any risk of course. I want to be like I'm drawn to you because you're real. Yeah you're actually showing me who you are and that's that's something that I've heard from partners too. Is like I one of the questions I love asking people is. How do you remember me disclosing and what do you remember thinking of me in that moment. And I keep getting the same answer which is I was in awe of your bravery. I was in awe of how vulnerable you were making yourself and it attracted me to you more. Because you were being very honest and true to who you were. And I could tell that you were a strong person and very worth my time. And something that can be so scary for people who have herpes. Can actually be a very character defining moment and build so much trust. Because you are saying like this is this is who. I am this is what you have to know going in and that sort of transparency. Can actually be a huge asset and something that can really improve our relationship absolutely absolutely beautifully said. Yes I love that it's it's it it also opens the door for for that I forget one of my friends. I forget who it is in this sex sex health community a beacon of permission you've heard that term heard it before too. I don't remember it yeah I don't either attributed here fill in the blank but a beacon of permission of. When I'm willing to have this difficult kind of talk then it opens the door for that person that I'm disclosing to to be. Like oh wow okay so you have herpes well I have this thing that I'm ashamed of or I. Have this thing that's hard for me to talk about can we.
... Can we talk about that so it actually drops the whole conversation. And relationship down into like a deeper space automatically I mean the one of the defining moments with my girlfriend. And me who just recently moved in by the way was was the disclosure talk it. Was it was one of the most beautiful experiences because both of us got to we just we sat down we made. Like a romantic date of it of like sitting next to this stream. And it was a beautiful day and it was just it was a few hours of just opening up to each other. And and revealing the deeper levels of who we are and that was the time. When we really started falling in love with each other so it's. I like I want to impress this on so many people of. Like it whatever you believe about herpes it could possibly be just the opposite of. What you're holding on to it meaning yeah and I've. I had so many like late night 2 a.m 3 a.m 4 a.m deep conversations with with my last serious partner about. Like all of the things that that we struggled with all the things that we. Were afraid to talk about because it was just like the floodgates had been opened. And it was amazing and those are those moments that make a relationship. And are very healing and it's funny what you said about like everything. You know about herpes is probably wrong it's probably opposite. I would say I've had the best sex of my life since getting diagnosed I've had the best relationships of my life since getting diagnosed. I have never been prouder to be who I am. I have never loved myself more I've never been stronger like. I sound like such an [ __ ] inspiration preach it sister. Like I'm sure somebody's just like rolling their eyes but I. I am so like I wouldn't change anything like I wouldn't go back. And do anything differently because I'm so proud of who. I am and it really changed my life for the better it it.
... Was a brutal like six months to a year where. I was miserable and struggling a lot with who I was and for some people that takes longer for some people it doesn't set in for a while I've had I've had friends. Who have said like yeah I got diagnosed it didn't really bother me until. Like a year later everybody has their own trajectory but you can reach a point. Where you look back and go wait my life is actually awesome. And a lot of that has to do with getting diagnosed and. And going through that process yeah yeah the whole idea of hitting rock bottom. Is a fascinating concept I mean you hear about that phrase a lot in alcoholics anonymous. Like aa really popularized that phrase of hitting rock bottom but I see it all over the place that it's it allows this phoenix rising from the ashes type metaphor to happen of. Like yeah I'm waxing poetic too now but like like like reimagining myself if I really. Have hit rock bottom maybe that means that that who I've been up until that point hasn't really been. Who I truly am and and and who am I really underneath maybe that layer of of personality or. Like you know of surface yeah surface this mask like like who am. I behind the mask and and something like herpes something like hitting rock bottom kind of forces us to confront that. Yeah and it can for me it was such an ex it. Was so central to me growing up and to being in my twenties. And I don't look back and think like with any sort of judgment as to. Who I was before I don't regret any decisions I've ever made. I look back at like 20 year old pre-diagnosis ella and I'm quite fond of her she. Was doing her thing she was she was like beta stage ella and I don't. I don't judge myself for anything I've ever done she was she. Was young she was young but this it like tested my medal.
... Like I it it really proved to me what I was capable of. And forced me to grow up in certain ways and going through that pain. Was really horrible and having those experiences and hating myself that much for that window that I. Did was was really horrible but it was it was what made me grow up. And I think a lot of people have those experiences whether it's dealing with addiction or dealing with family or really struggling with with anything. Like people everybody has those moments that really define them and make them. Who they are and for me growing up was turning 21 getting diagnosed getting an infected spider bite. Like getting my heart broken all within like the same four weeks wow. And it like that was when my life got kicked into high gear. Like that was when I became ella 2.0 and started growing up. And being stronger my friend was at my spider bite moment like that was. When my my superhero powers kicked in like spider woman exactly and he recently. Was like well with great herpes comes great responsibility like that's true that's really true wow a wise blaze. Yeah a wise person yeah it's it's funny like some of the some of the backlash I've gotten around calling it the herpes opportunity. Is that it's like wow it seems like you're glorifying herpes and it's. Like yeah I can see how it might have you've gotten that. Yeah I could see how proud right I'm proud that I have herpes. And it's like no I'm proud of who I am exactly in the face of whatever shows up in my life it's. Like I know that I can not only survive but I can overcome. I can be strong I can I can be continue being who. I am in the face of anything that you put in front of me. Yeah and this is just a test it's only a test and it. Is an opportunity to like to take stock of who you are. And who you want to be and the type of life you want to lead it's it's a real opportunity to get to know yourself.
... And I think that is so worth it's so worth it and it's hard. But it's it's it's wonderful like I'm not I got so so annoyed this week. When people are like why is she proud it's like I'm proud of. Who I am not the disease that I have I'm proud of the fact that it doesn't define me even if the headline. Is woman 22 has like tells the world she has genital herpes your headline for yourself. Yeah the headlines got crazy I'm sure I'm sure oh wow wow beautiful beautiful. Is there anything else I think there's something to touch on around. Because a lot of this talk has been like inspired and yay. And to really touch on like yeah you touched on there was there. Was a lot of suffering in that and I suffered like hell it. Was much longer than six months for me I got herpes like a decade ago. And it was I didn't have a support system I didn't have anything out there telling me that it. Was going to be okay so I just had my worst case scenarios just hanging out in my mind. And then feeling like I had no place to turn just made them fester that much more. And get worse and worse so so neither of us are saying. Like hey just get over it like there is actually a healing process involved. And some of that is suffering and ironically enough and this is going to sound. So weird I know but the more that I'm like just getting in touch with. Who I truly am it's not like the suffering never isn't there anymore of course it's still. Like I'm in pain and I like sometimes I feel like my life sucks. And oh gosh and then my life is great again and but there. Is a certain beauty in all of it like even if I'm suffering it's. Like if I can be just in touch with myself and like all. Right wow I'm suffering right now and that's okay like I'm still I'm.
... I still have a good relationship with myself yeah and and I. Can be my own best friend and I can I can put my hand on my own back. And be like buddy you're gonna you're gonna make it through this. You know and there's a certain kind as corny as that sounds it's. Like I've had so many of those moments through this whole growth process that. You know herpes has been that leverage that thing that sparked this whole growth process I've had. So many of those moments since then where it's like oh gosh I'm I'm just alive. And I'm living the whole spectrum of the human experience and part of that is suffering. And part of that is beauty and it's everything in between exactly it's a roller coaster. And you have to have that bad to appreciate the good you. Have to you have to go through all that horrible pain to come out the other side stronger. And to look back and remember it and know that's not where you. Are anymore or that's not where you want to be anymore and just I called a friend of mine in the midst of my panic attack. When I became internet famous and I was like this is crazy the daily mail rated my facebook photos this. Is going to find to define me for the rest of my life. Like people are going to google me like this is what they're going to see. And my friend was like well it could be worse you could. Have herpes and there was this long silence and we both burst out laughing. Like that would really suck and it was just so beautiful it. Was just so great because everything can be endured and everything that can seem. Like such a big deal in one moment will be a funny punchline two years later with someone that you love. And it is a rollercoaster and I I did go through a huge process of grief. And shame and self-loathing and blame and I still one of the things that I struggle with.
... I still do worry about my partner's safety and that is one of those. I will ha like be triggered when I do I in my last serious relationship. When I would think that I was about to have an outbreak or I. Would have like folliculitis like irritated hair follicles and think it was a sore that was very scary. When I knew that there was another person I might have put at risk. And as it stood I hadn't had an outbreak I only had my second outbreak recently. But whenever it came to thinking that I'd put someone. I loved in jeopardy those are those moments where everything would come back. And I would be horrified and scared and feel guilty and feel ashamed. Because of that other person that I loved and imagining that future for them. So I I've come a long way and I am now like the poster child of millennials with herpes. And that's all great and I I'm not afraid of other people judging me for having herpes. But I do have those hang-ups and those things I struggle with. And for me I I get very freaked out about my partner's safety if I ever. Have a reason to think that there's something I could have expose them to. And to my knowledge I've never transmitted my partners have been really great at getting tested. And and being very forthcoming but that is something that scares me. Because I I don't want that stigma for them I want. I want more freedom for them so yeah everybody everybody has their thing that's that's hard. Yeah I see that a lot I mean I I of course. Have it I mean my girlfriend doesn't have herpes and. You know I I do my best to to keep her as safe as possible. And I've noticed in myself of that that fear that comes up. Because I know that fear in myself like oh I don't want you to get it babe. You know it's it's annoying it's not a life. You know life ender but it's annoying and I don't want you to get it.
... And but I like when I when I dig a little deeper under the fear it's. Like coming from such a place of like caring and. You know I care about you and I want you to be safe. And comfortable and happy you know so it's like an instinct right it's such. So that that helps me to kind of get beneath the surface. And really reconnect to why I'm feeling that in the first place. And what I want to say to the people who are watching this. Who have herpes and and who are who are worried about the herpes talk. I see this all the time of of used as an excuse to not even go there. And not even try to date outside of the herpes community which by the way. I think you know dating herpes only is perfectly fine. I don't have any judgments against it but know that that's only three percent of the population that is in herpes dating communities. And to open yourself up to more means that you can have a partnership that is really for you but to go back to the point it's used as an excuse a lot to say. Well I don't I don't want to put another person at risk. So I'm just not going to go there at all and again. What it's such a waste people you have so much to offer another person. Right yeah yeah exactly exactly it's like it's like I. I wanna I wanna I want them to see what I'm seeing in that moment. When they're saying with so much compassion and so much love oh. I don't want to I don't want anyone to suffer like I've suffered. And it's like oh that is so beautiful that you want that can't you see. How someone who doesn't have herpes would want to like at least. Have the option of dating you to get to know you right that's great that's a great asset. When you're a decent empathetic wonderful person like that that can make you a great partner.
... Yeah right right so so is there anything else that that you'd. Like to share before you wrap this up oh man yeah. I we can always have other interviews too yeah we can do this more it's. So liberating to finally talk about this with my face like that's this. Is gonna be on the internet yeah but yeah I. I I would just say to people who are my age who. Are like a lot of the messages that I get that really [ __ ] me up on an emotional level. Are the people who are 18 19 20 who are close to my age. And even some people who are younger than that who are in their mid-teens. And it seems like your life is over because you're so young. And you have the rest of your life like that can be that scale. Is quite daunting and I would just say to those people like. I am about to turn 23 I have a job that I love that I love. So much I have this super cool new writing career I have a surplus of male attention. No offense to anybody watching and I have a wonderful relationship with my parents. I have amazing friends I have this super cool social media personality. Like I am I am exactly who I wanted to be three or four or five years ago. And you can be a millennial you can be in your 20s. And have herpes and be just fine it's gonna be fine. I promise you can you can make yourself into exactly who you. Are and who you want to be nothing can truly hold you back from that. And you can you can be in your 20s and be young. And live you can live that life and you might not be able to be as reckless as you see people being on tv. But I can honestly say I'm quite happy with the fact that I. Can go home and watch netflix instead of seducing somebody at a bar. Like that's fine with me I'm happy with that like you can you might.
... Have you have a responsibility to other people and to keep them safe. But you can live the life that you want no matter what that is. And you don't have to have a committed relationship either like that's you don't you don't. Have to you don't have to do that the world is still your oyster exactly it's gonna be fine you're gonna. Have fun awesome well thank you so much for for what you've done. And for for following through on that that fire that I saw in your eyes a year ago and. And having the courage to to really take a stand for what you believe in it's it's really inspiring to see. And I look forward to more thank you yeah the the party will continue. And I should say thank you to everyone in the herpes support community whether it's people whose message people. Have messaged me people who I've been friends with for years on tumblr anyone. Who has reached out recently any journalist who's been amazing. I could not be where I am if it had not been for everyone I've had in my life up until this point. And just like shout out to everyone you know who you are. Yes so much gratitude for everyone everywhere yeah awesome oh and what's your what's your blog go ahead. And shout that out so I need to get my website updated. But I have it's lscy the letters lscy lscydawson.wordpress.com and it's easier to find me on twitter you. Can just search ella dawson my handle is at bros and pros. Because I write pros about bros and it's probably easier to find me on twitter than remembering my url. But those are the places that I hang out and I'm not really accepting friend requests. I got a flood of friend requests on facebook that's just not something that I feel the most comfortable with as a social media manager. And I also spend all of my day on facebook as my job. So it's it's a lot for me to manage if I have a lot of all of my herpes life going on in my facebook but I am.
... So so interested in connecting with people on twitter that's where. I live and feel free to keep sending me facebook messages but I'm that's. Why I'm not accepting friend requests it's not because you're not awesome awesome all. Right well thank you so much and we will see each other soon I'm. Sure yeah thank you so much all right bye bye you.
What if everyone knew that you have herpes? (And I do mean everyone.) Would you feel violated, judged and ashamed? Or would you feel free, truthful and alive?
Deep down, we all know that we live in broken, wounded world full of fear and judgment. So we feel like we have to protect ourselves and hide who we really are just to survive and hopefully live a "normal" life.
My friend Ella is proof that you really can change the world. She’s proof that you can make the world a better place that’s full of kindness, acceptance and love. We met after I was on a panel called "Living with an STI" at CatalystCon back in 2014. She was timid yet memorable, quivering with anticipation, wanting to write and talk about herpes, to do her part to help shift the stigma. Then before I knew it, I saw her everywhere talking about herpes! Mainstream newspapers, giving a TEDx talk, even MTV!
Now you might be asking … so what can I do to change the world? I'm not Ella, you say. Well, the answer is simple (but not always easy).
All you have to do is transform and heal yourself. The reality is, you are not going to live in a loving world until you love yourself. You can’t create a more accepting world until you accept yourself.
Most people who get herpes either suffer in fear and isolation, or they heal, grow and thrive.
And you have the courage, just like Ella, to choose the latter.
Your next step
Wherever you are on your journey, there's something here for you.
